The roots of the problem..

[vmadman]

Someone is actively trying to scam me right now, I caught onto it almost immediately after the scam began, so I am still trying to extract as much information about this person as I can.

This particular scam is a car seller, who insists on using "Square Trade" .. do a quick google search and you will get the whole story behind this particular scam.

In any case, I had not read about it, but was looking for a car. I noticed a $20,000+ car selling for $6,900, and like all reasonable people decided to check it out. This guy is obviously hispanic/spanish/etc, and english is likely his second language. This, I deduced, from the fact that though he gets the translations right, he misuses advanced english concepts.. such as particples and alike. In my profession, I work with a lot of people from all over the world, and his particular misuse of words points straight to spanish.. which I also speak

Anyway, it so happens that despite their best efforts, which he obviously took care to avoid, "Square Trade" (which is otherwise a legitimate, American company) cannot seem to use proper english either.

Also, we have verified the buyer's information. This is needed in case something goes wrong. We will take full measures against persons that will break Square Trade's rules.

"We will take full measures" they say. So, this is just one thing to look for... the person trying to defraud you can only copy and paste so much before they actually have to write something in the blank.

With all of that aside, I started researching the domain and just about anything I could to find out who was behind the fraud. After reading up on it, I realized that the money.. in the particular scam.. could quasi-easily be recovered supposed that I do send the money, as anyone "off guard" could easily mistakenly do.

But just because the money could, in theory, be recovered, it doesnt mean that this guy did not just walk off with cash that cannot. In otherwords, someone will pay, but because of the strict U.S. laws against fraud, its often the companies who allow the fraud to take place that do the paying.

So, I stumbled upon this site, noticing a similar scam tactic. I noticed that you guys were fighting to remove ws-trade.com -- which for all I know, was an actual legitimate company.. but more often than not, there is not actual company behind the deal.

The "official invoice" emails I've recevied so far were from "contact@squaretrade-e-trust.com". Which obviously means that a second domain was created just for this guy, or perhaps even just for this scam. A quick whois revels someone in NJ, a private citizen.

-------
Domain Name.......... squaretrade-e-trust.com
Creation Date........ 2005-08-08
Registration Date.... 2005-08-08
Expiry Date.......... 2006-08-08
Organisation Name.... Scott Betsy
Organisation Address. 11 elmwood dr
Organisation Address.
Organisation Address. succasunna
Organisation Address. 07876
Organisation Address. NJ
Organisation Address. UNITED STATES
-------

Here is an interesting tidbit .. an amazing similarity to your "front page story".

-------
Current Registrar: MELBOURNE IT, LTD. D/B/A INTERNET NAMES WORLDWIDE
IP Address: 216.136.232.176 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: US(UNITED STATES)-CALIFORNIA-SUNNYVALE
-------

Now, one would immediately assume that this guy was the guy doing the fraud, and I should either call the FBI or drive up there and bash in his head. But, with a little study I realized that my money is not the only target here, but rather my identity. Someone, before me, was scammed.. and the scammer used this person for the new domain.

Additionally, the bank account that I "should wire the money to" is also probably owned by a person who had their identity stolen.

Just in case someone has access to resouces I do not, here is that info..
-----------
Agent name: Ormond A Fernandez
Address: 4729 Wallace Place, Philadelphia, PA 19139
Bank name: PNC Bank
Bank address: 19 South 52nd Street, Philadelphia, PA 19139
Account no: 8617970097
Bank routing no: 031000053
-----

Heh, seeing as how I have a merchant account with an e-check company, I could easily find out how much money is in that account then take the lot of it.. but I'd rather not envolve myself at that level.

And, I did a lookup at "routingtool.com" -- to see if the bank info was correct...

Details: VALIDATED
Bank Contact Info:PNCBANK, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION
Phone: 412-762-4224
P7-PFSC-03-H
PITTSBURGH, PA 15219

Apparently so.

Anyway, knowing that it is in the united states, for sure, and that the fraudulent guy has access to that account, for sure, then we have yet another direct link to the actual person performing fraud.

The guy emailed me from "paulsil02@hotmail.com" (please do not send email here, I am still trying to work this guy, waiting on a phone number now) .. but, my point is, he logs into hotmail to check the mail.. albeit his information stored in hotmail is probably entirely fake.. hotmail can easily grab his IP address. His IP will point to an ISP, and an ISP can point to an access address. He may skip from library to library, or internet cafe, etc.. but he can be tracked to a spot on earth.

I think that the people in charge at Hotmail, the ISP he uses, the bank he is frauding, and all other direct links that can be derived should be the people responsible for bringing this guy to justice... and instead of us wondering what is, and what is not fraud, we should work to establish a network of information that can lead to arrests, not prevention.

Computer fraud in the United States has serious, serious, consequences, and we have some pretty tough treaties along the same lines. Since all internet fraud takes place in multiple states (just by nature of the internet) the guy doing to job is performing both electronic and interstate fraud.

So, ok, I am almost done.. but isnt there something we can do? A way working to create a clearing house of information to be pushed the FBI?

Let me know your thoughts, and thanks for your time.

Luke Chavers
Pensacola, FL
vmadman@gmail.com

[vmadman]

Another quick note..

The guy signed up with a geocities account to get that domain..

http://www.geocities.com/ginegan321/

He had to login with an IP ... once again, where ya at Yahoo?

-Luke

[peg]

vmadman,

WOW, you said a mouthful. And I agree with what your saying. The problem with more arresting and less preventing (so to speak) is that although there are ways to "track" some of this information, these scammers know that and have learned to protect themseleves on multiple levels.

First... The IP Addresses. Indeed an IP Address can be tracked to a specific ISP and thus to a specific computer. Problem is, the computer that it's tracked to is very often just a portal computer. By that, I mean, they access it remotely, possibly by means of exploiting a vulnerability (maybe a virus), or perhaps it was accessed with something as simple as remote desktop. I have even heard stories of these scammers bouncing of several different computers to make the trace even that much harder.

Next, as you also pointed out, most of the domains created are generaly using stolen identities. If you call the "Registered Owner" of these domains, usually you get a confused person who has no clue what you are talking about. Some even get angry at you thinking that YOU are the one trying to pull a scam on them. (That is why I no longer call the "Registerd Owner" of the domains).

As far as the Wire Transfer contact. Typically this is another person Hired by the scammer (and always via the internet, never in person). You know the job offer to be a Transaction Agent? (Or something similar?) They hire you to get the money... let you keep part and send the remaining (by Western Union typically - Not very traceable) funds to them. Then when the scammer gets caught, YOU are the one that takes the fall. All the information you have to them is either false or just a Western Union Instructions, which they will no longer use.

I am all for getting them shut down but unless the dollar amount of the crime is significant, it seems like the FBI (or other law enforcement) won't do anything. Many of the frauds I hear about are only for a couple of thousand dollars (euro's, or whatever other currency you choose), and that typically is not enough for the FBI to get involved. I do however recommend that you report the crime to them anyway. My theroy is that if they get enough reports of these types of crimes, then maybe they will change their attitude on the subject.

All that being said, anything I can do to help stop the scammers from defrauding innocent people, I would be happy to do.

[Eric Brewster]

Eric Brewster: Gee PEG you have faith in our legal system but sadly as you pointed out it is the facts that this scams and flimflams and employment frauds can only go on and the scammers not get caught is that there are loopholes in all things legal.....as well as businessese just so businesses and employers do not have to take the heat for such things.

They can cry a bucket of tears shaking hankies saying, "We did not know, it is the others that did it.....we were meerly conducting business." PEG You have also pointed out that unless an big business is getting defrauded the FBI etc, up here it is the RCMP......cannot step in to investigate for small change.

[peg]

I do have faith in our legal system, but only to a point. I was a Military Policeman for 8 years, and I understand how law enforcement works. I also no politics and how and why things get done.

The sad part is when the criminals get more rights than the victims. It's also sad that law enforcement will (generally) only take on those that are considered major as far as fraud. Given the international nature of these crimes, I realize it is difficult to have our small time cop try and track down a romanian scammer for a mere couple of hundred or even thousands of dollars. The FBI/Secret Service is so overwhelmed with larger cases that the small ones are put to the back.

Eventually, I forsee the FBI/Secret Service putting a special division in just as they have done for the 419 scams. Then there might be some result (There's that faith I am clinging on to again). Even the 419 scams still go on, but I do believe it has lessened. It might take economic impacts to slow down the Escrow-Frauds as well. That is why Nigeria is getting better about cracking down. No one wants to deal with them because, now, everyone knows Nigeria is a place to get scammed, so no one takes credit cards, purchase orders, money orders, certified checks, etc... from them for fear of fraud. Thus no business is done. That really hurts their economy.

That is what is going to have to happen to Romania. The more the word gets out that Romania is a place to get ripped off, the less people will deal wtih them, and that will (eventually) hurt them economically. Then maybe the corrupt people in government will see that the honest people will demand that something be done for fear of losing office (and power).

[scambuster]

the problems are many !
1. the internet has no laws. its like the wild west
2. the users are too lazy ! 80% of all puters online are infected!
3. the scammers use IT experts which outwit any investigator without a a degree in IT technology !
4. the authorities dont care ! they dont regard themselves as kindergardners of ebay users with bargain hunting disease
5. according to the european commision on cybercrime, the financial damage from cybercrime for 2003 lies between 150 and 200 billion euros !
6. the ic3 receives around 600 complaints daily....70% of them are related to auction fraud.
7. ebay claims to hold 80% of the global onlineauction marketshare
8. these numbers could be used to deduct that ebay is indirectly responsible for 100 billion euro financial damage per year.

[Grachtenhamster]

You forgot one thing, which in my opinion should bear no. 1 in your list:

The greed of the buyers! How can a clear-minded person believe to get a car, a bike, a laptop, or any other high-priced article for less than half of its real value??
Greed eats brain, so simple it is!

[peg]

You forgot one thing, which in my opinion should bear no. 1 in your list:

The greed of the buyers! How can a clear-minded person believe to get a car, a bike, a laptop, or any other high-priced article for less than half of its real value??
Greed eats brain, so simple it is!

Let's not forget the other side as well. The greed to sell an item for more than it's worth.

Unfortunately, I made that mistake once. (Which is why I now have this site). I had just become a dealer for a laptop company. I was anxious to sell (of course), because the more I sell the less my cost and the more my profit. When a buyer inquired about my ebay listing, I was eager to respond. He suggested escrow, offered to pay all shipping and fees. I was naive and fell for it, hook, line and sinker. After about 4 days after shipping, I got no response. It was then I got that sinking feeling.

Even though I didn't "Charge" more than it's worth, the fact that my buyer was Soooooooo accomodating and willing to accept pretty much all my terms without batting an eye, in hind sight, should have caused me concern.

Trust me I learned from that mistake.

[Grachtenhamster]

Well, partly I agree, but in case of seller victims it's not that easy. Prices achieved mostly are reasonable, so I wouldn't call it greed. However, logical thinking and a little bit professional behaviour would avoid most of the scams. I really do not understand how people accept "escrow services" which even do not show an address on their website!

My experience is that scammed sellers often are more intelligent than scammed buyers. Some days ago I had a victim who "bought" from the Chinese bamboo hamsters 2 Canon cameras for $ 400 each, normal retail price is around ? 5000 (p.p.!). He was talking about "an interesting offer"...! Also far away from the reality of life are people "buying" a car worth 20.000 Euros for 6.800 only (seems to be standard scam price). And instead of being thankful for getting saved sending their hard-earned money to Carpatistan they are crying tears that this "good deal" did not go through. Not to forget those, who refuse to disclose the corresponding eBay accounts or article numbers, because they are afraid that somebody could snap away their super bargain!

[Eric Brewster]

Peg, Scamb, Gach; it is like everything not on the internet in your locations. BUYER BEWARE OF SELLERS...........THAT SHOULD BE #1 on any Buyer's mind. For example, the buying and selling of Motorscooters and Motorcycles in local newspapers and speciality buying-trading publications. 1. By word of mouth I in need, bought an 1985 Honda Elite 150 Motor Scooter for $900.00 Word of mouth of course.

2. The reality of the deal, the motorscooter in question had been rebuilt from the frame up by an motorcycle garage in Quebec City, Quebec Canada and an guy from Greenwood, NS bought it and had it taken down here to Nova Scotia, Canada. Simple yes? Unfortunately no; you see the Motorscooter was rebuilt and had well over some 20 or 30 parts put on it and apparently by the papers that this man had whom I bought it from, showed me them. In my estimate, the motorscooter should have been only worth some at most $400-500 or less. However 3. If you want something and you see it you have to have the money to purchase it......I did and I gave the guy $900 to seal the deal. This year I will try to register the motorscooter and put it on the road and use it.

4. The Sellers creed is BUY LOW SELL HIGH..........I do not know what price the guy actually bought the motorscooter for but I doubt if it was $900, possibably he would have spent some $600 at most.......but whom is going to tell? 5. I have bought some 5 motorscooters from people, all those motorscooters have been anywhere from 15yrs to some 25-30yrs old. Why you ask? These Motorscooters are not being produced here and when you realize that a brand new Motorscooter may cost some $6000-8000, then the retail dealers find more profit in selling new and used cars. 6. Then apply this Buy Low Sell Hign Influence to the Internet scams and flimflams and you can see why there are foolish buyers out there moaning about the "deal sweetness that went sour".